Here is a neat time line in the idealist perspective of how the events of AD 70 become truly relevant. If we fail to ignore the implications of the shadows and their fate, then how can we really address the nature of the spiritual battles we are in today?

Nothing occurred back then as a testament unto themselves, they all stood to represent the truth of "God with us."

Full Preterism vs. Idealism Part 4: Full Preterism's Single Dimension Focus

The focus on strict time line theology has led many to miss important personal elements of the walk with Christ. Constantly bringing the kingdom into the realm of time, by establishing it's beginning in time, while explaining it's location as being one in time, has left out what the kingdom really is.

In Full Preterism you have study after study about how the kingdom "came down" and whether or not the kingdom is "inside you" or "among you." The constant temporal focus of the kingdom has kept Full Preterism in the blind to both the individual and eternal dimensions of the kingdom. Over and over again there is a debate on when the kingdom arrived temporal and where the kingdom is temporal.

In a study by a Partial Preterist we can see what he considers the three important questions when discussing the kingdom:

"The problem comes when so many modern Christians are confused as to the nature and timing of the Kingdom. How are we to seek what we don't understand? When is this Kingdom!? Where is this Kingdom!? What is the Kingdom!?...Ever since that time, Jesus has been reigning over his Kingdom. First Corinthians 15:25 states, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." Jesus, our victorious King, is in the process of conquering his enemies on the earth..."To better understand this interesting passage we must realize that the events in the book of Revelation were to happen in the first century...we again we see that the Kingdom of Christ began in the first century, is a present reality, and will consummate in the future. Let us be encouraged that our Lord is on the throne and that he is putting all of his enemies under his feet!"

This is a good charge by a Partial Preterist and a good example of how Full Preterism must leave consistency or give in to another form of theology. If death is destroyed then Christ must have handed the kingdom over to His Father and He is also subjected to Him. If the kingdom is a "when" and a "where," and death is defeated, then the kingdom is handed over and He is no longer in charge! The Full Preterist could go the Partial Preterist route and declare that the kingdom is to be consummated at some end of time, (or) it could go the Universalist route and declare that the kingdom is completely consummated and the Father is in charge because there is nothing left for the Son to do, or it could go the Idealist route, and see the kingdom for what it is -- an everlasting throne and habitation in the eternal realm.

Isaiah 9:7 The dominion will be vast, and its prosperity will never end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this.

There is never a time when the kingdom ends. He is always reigning over it from the right hand of the throne. Yet there is clearly a time when He hands it over to the Father. So which is it? Or is it both? Did Christ just have a 40 year reign from AD 30-70 or does He reign forever? Looking at a beginning and a handing over in a strict chronological view cannot consistently answer this question! Having a single dimension focus completely reduces the kingdom to something it is not. No matter how the Full Preterists declare it is a spiritual kingdom, Full Preterism puts temporal characteristics on it's nature.

This is noticeable in many FP writings on kingdom verses, such as "World without end" -- which is absolutely not talking about natural, chronological history, despite FP usage of this verse as a proof text that the world will exist forever.

The funny thing about the quotes above is though he declares he will discuss the "nature" of the kingdom, he never really does. He only goes into discussing it's length, which is still distorted by his timing. The reason to me is plain. Partial Preterism is time driven, (as Full Preterism is time driven, and neither one is able to correctly address the beginning (none), end (none), and true nature (spiritual and individual) of the kingdom. This is not only a sign of the incorrectness of the focus of both systems, but also of the ultimate bankruptcy of the theologies built upon that incorrect focus.

Looking at the kingdom with a microscope will either force the Full Preterist into seeing the eternal and individual dimensions of the kingdom, or their systematic approach will distort it and keep them blind and putting it into a box (wet, soggy, and torn apart after the flood rains come.

Christ had more in mind when He made this famous and theologically abused statement:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

According to the historical focus of Full Preterism, the rules of logic supposedly dictate that the kingdom has a discernable beginning point. . This is assumed because no matter how much Christ said about it, they do not understand what the kingdom is! If we look at the descriptions Christ put on it, and the actions that make someone a part of it, we see that it transcends time.

Being a part of the kingdom had everything to do with the manifestation of the new heart by those who believed. Those who had faith (within) would act rightly (without). Those poor in spirit internally would be meek, give the shirt off their back as well as their coat, take the low seat in the house, carry their brothers burdens, and have ears to hear -- all evidences of a softened heart to the gospel. Those who lacked faith would contrarily manifest the fruits of the flesh. We know Christians by their love, so beware of those who claim the name of Christ yet manifest the opposite.

Long before "the kingdom came in AD 70" (which assumption I dispute), there were men who were every bit as much citizens and participants within it because of their faith. Many of the most recognizable names of such people were recorded in Hebrews. Abraham, Moses, and David were all "sons of the kingdom" long before it ever came to be manifested in the historical realm. Now I know the arguments that say that these fathers of faith were hanging out in a very heaven like spiritual realm called Hades until the earthly time line of AD 70 was concluded (a spiritual realm that is supposedly in the lake of fire suffering eternal torment, for that is what the lake of fire is), however this is also due to the incorrect view of taking God's eternal timelessness and making His realities subject to our time.

Here is another example of this mistaken presumptive approach from Michael Bennett.

"Under a New Covenant where Christ said "in order for there to be a change in Priesthood there must be a change of the law". Then the "new commandments" which really "are not new" are "new" none the less."

This is how it is explained -- by not explaining it. It is new because he said FP based logic dictates it, even though it is old and eternal and the original. So what makes it new? It cannot be answered properly within the FP framework, because the proper answer obliterates the time line (anchor of the entire) theology. The biblical answer is "it is not new!"

Full Preterists, in order to maintain the integrity of their hermeneutic, choose to take the timeline-based answer (it is new) over the non timeline-based answer with which they also agree (it is not new). However, it is a plain contradiction to have something new that is eternal. It is claimed that it was eternal BEGINNING AT A CERTAIN POINT IN HISTORY, assuming that the rules of time and space on earth are precisely what governs the eternal realm as well.. as though God uses the 12 month based calendar. Though "logic" may dictate this, considering references such as '12 manner of fruit in their seasons' in Revelation, it is much better to reckon this type of communication as being a timeless God in a timeless realm utilizing what man knows (time and space) to get his point across. This principle is the foundation of a proper approach to prophecy, yet which ultimate meaning is completely lost with Full Preterism, as it takes the communication method as being the entirety of the message!

Instead, it is a much more faithful reading of scripture -- and one which provides great internal blessing for God's people -- to recognize that the kingdom is eternal; however, with the removal of the temporalizing veil, it is seen for the first time for what it truly is. It is new to those who are seeing it, as it is newly revealed. It is new in the same way my old car can be "new" to someone who just purchased it. Salvation is "eternal" but it is "new" to the person who just received it.

Here are just a few of a multitude of verses which demonstrate the hidden/revealed dynamic of the kingdom:

• Mt 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

• Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

• Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

• 1 Cor. 2:7,10 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

• 2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

• 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

• 2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

• Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

• Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

• Eph 3:9-10 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now, unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places, might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

• Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

And that which is being "revealed" ; "manifested" ; "seen"

• Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

• Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

• Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

• Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

• Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

• 1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

• Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

• Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

• 2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

• Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

• 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

• 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

The kingdom was being revealed in it's fullness by the eternal One from the very beginning. The failure to see the things on earth as a revelation of the eternal, instead making them into that which creates the spiritual, is the single biggest difference between the Full Preterist and the Idealist positions. Nothing done on earth started or stopped the things that are eternal (Law of Christ, Kingdom of God, the Word, Sabbath, etc). When Christ referred to the kingdom as something coming, when He gave the AD 70 parables to the disciples and multitudes, it was not to tell them that something NEW was being instituted, but to reveal to them the way it was always supposed to be, and the way it always is for those who "seek ye first the kingdom of God," just as Abel or Abraham did. They followed the law of Christ and were "sons of the kingdom" long before AD 70.

What Full Preterists have forgotten or simply not grasped -- and this is what helped me in my change -- is that AD 70 was a revelation of who Christ and the "sons of God" were.

When I presented that point of view in defiance of a literal rapture, but from a Full Preterist perspective, all my Full preterist friends were right on board. However, when I was hit over the head by the Spirit with the revelation that " it was ALL about revealing Himself and who we are in Him," and was about nothing else, then I was chastised for abandoning the time line theology.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation eagerly waits with anticipation for God's sons to be revealed.

All of the warnings to live right, maintain unity, etc. were given to that typological generation because they were about to be vindicated for the whole world to see. They would be revealed as the true sons of God. This is what the transition period and the war between the Jews and the Christian was all about. It is why it was a war where "vengeance is Mine," where "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal." The vindication was a revelation. All of it was a revelation of the eternal. They were not entering something new, they were being confirmed that they were a part of it already, and that they had been on the right side all along. Abraham never received this type of confirmation until his death, that is why it is said that he never entered the rest they did. However, once they had received that confirmation, then it as assured that Abraham had as well.

There is no question that many Full Preterists would agree wholeheartedly with much of this material, yet while still holding out hope to maintain their fundamentally chronological approach. However, by considering the eternal aspects simply the "applications" of the natural fulfillments, they miss out on how the very same eternal work is alive today, and operating in their lives, whether they recognize it or not. When the eternal starts to be applied and realized as eternal, and not as beginning in or being caused by AD 70, the attitude changes... as does the personal profitability of the study for our walk with Christ, and our victory in the midst of the perverse generation alive today.

One of the biggest attitude changers for me -- and what was one of the easiest reasons to grasp the fundamentally different approach with Idealism -- was the fact that realizing that the law of Christ and the kingdom are eternal in nature, yet are revealed in the process of time. This recognition allowed me to stop wasting time looking at what "time" it arrived and what ceased thereafter, instead freeing me to look at what the heck it actually is, and what it means for me today. Recognizing this intensely personal work of the Spirit is something very lacking in Full Preterist circles, and is actually mocked by many as being wimpy or subjective or "seeker sensitive." Other times, when Preterists start evolving into a deeper and more profound relationship with eternal things, they are called "Postmodern," "a cult," and (insert the name of your theological enemy here).

The Idealist standpoint chooses to look at the WHAT and not so much as the WHEN. It looks at the actual message meant to be conveyed by the chosen method, and not just at the method itself. Unfortunately, when in Full Preterist circles, the focus on the "when" completely distorts the "what" -- and declares that the "what" is not even for today, as it was fulfilled and terminated thousands of years ago!

This series of explanatory essays will be concluded with a summation, which will begin to "answer back" at the specific questions and responses from the first 4 parts. I will be TAD for 3 weeks so the summary will come in about 4 weeks. After that, I will add appendices to address whatever original questions arise.

God Bless
Nate

Full Preterism vs. Idealism Part 3: FULL PRETERISMS "NEW" GOSPEL

So that the points to the Full Preterism vs. Idealism discussion do not get side tracked, I want to say that this is not a debate about Universalists, Universalism, coined phrases, or peoples character. This study is a direct attempt to answer the questions I was personally asked concerning the difference between Full Preterism and Idealism, and to show why I believe Full Preterism falls short of the mark. The fact that I am discussing that Full Preterism, in it's logical conclusions, leads to Universalism is simply why I wrote Part 2. The logic used to describe the irrelevance of death and the devil for all, yet still keep condemnation going for anyone not in Christ by creating a "new death" and "new law" which men break, is faulty and lacking.

In doing so, Full Preterism creates a "new condemnation." Putting the truth of these spiritual facts into time lines, produces a logical beginning and end to these facts. In Adam all died, and now that AD 70 has occurred, all men are no longer in Adam. That condemnation has been put away. Now they are just simply outside the Covenant and "naked." Here is some language used by Michael Bennett, a friend of mine who is a Full Preterist, to describe why men are still condemned even after the condemnation of Adam was put away.

"There is a difference between the garden and the New Jerusalem...The garden they were naked and no knowledge of good and evil. Ate and had knowledge, and got the boot. Could not partake in tree. Now naked people (those without a covenant / and know good and evil it has all been revealed) can clothe themselves (with Christ) and come into the city to partake in the tree that allows you to "live forever."

This idea of a difference between the garden and the New Jerusalem is one part of the problem. However, this explanation falls in perfect logic with what I had posted from Sam Frost in Part 2.

"If the death is still around, then so is your condemnation. With the destruction of the Death, the condemnation in Adam was effectively removed. Dennis asks how can this be for the believer, but not for the wicked. This is answered by replacing the First Death with a new heavens and new earth Death, the Second one."

The logic of this Full Preterist thinking creates a new version of condemnation NEVER ONCE addressed in scripture by Christ, the Apostles, or anyone else for that matter. The reason this Part 3 is called a "...New Gospel" is because they have created new scenarios that do not come from scripture, but from their own logical conclusions of what they believe their time line driven theology leads to. The first death was brought on by Adam, the second death was brought on by Christ! People are released from the first condemnation of Adam, only to be innocently condemned to eternal torment, not because they are guilty of sin under Adam, but because they are born outside of the New Covenant.

As a friend has put it: "'I came not to condemn the world' - and then He signs a bill making a new law of condemnation.'"

The language has also been used by calling the law that now condemns men, since the law of Moses has been put away, the "law of Christ." This assumes Christ came to enact a law not previously enacted before. Full Preterism uses this to describe the commandments which men break today. By this the "new heavens and new earth Death" becomes enacted as well. Here is another Full Preterist explanation of this type of logic to explain the condemnation of today.

"People didn't transgress Adam's law yet still guilty in him...Death reigned from Adam to Moses even though sin was not held in account. Yet Sodom was destroyed...Even if none of these apply today, is there something called the 'law of Christ.'"

Once again, making a difference between Adam's law and the law of Christ creates a problem. A claim was made that they are seeing the whole story, so their conclusions are valid. However, they are inventing a new story because the old one passed away and became irrelevant. The Full Preterist focus on time line driven theology, and not Christ revealing theology, places dates as to when old sin and new sin started and stopped. Old condemnation and old laws stopped and new condemnation and new laws begin. This is only logical when looking at things strictly chronologically. When looking at things as all pointing to Christ and all being a part of the same story that ends in eternal life for those in Christ, and condemnation for those still in Adam, the focus becomes so much more clear, and the need to create new scenarios by which men are condemned is simply silliness, and maybe worse.

So to get to the point of why a "new heavens and new earth death" or a new reason outside of the old Adam is NOT needed for mankind to be condemned, is because nothing that occurred in AD 70 is new at all. This is where we get to the explanation of what Idealism truly is vs. the typical Full Preterist interpretation. This is also where I jumble together my other points of logic that are missing from the Full Preterist reasoning. It is the lack of these understandings that make the Full Preterist system lead to an inventing of new doctrine of sin, law, and death in today's world.

4. God’s attributes come into play for everything. God does not change and His character does not change. Just because God acted in time, those actions did not benefit, make different, cause change to, or halt His ways. He is the same today as He was in Genesis.

The law of Moses was a shadow of the true law. It represented the real law that was Christ. the law was a revelatory instrument used by God to show mankind His holiness, and our unworthiness. It pointed not only to our need for Christ, but was the tool by which mankind saw Christ revealed incarnate, when He fulfilled it's external works.

The law was made by Christ:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.
Hebrews 1:10 And: In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; 11 they will perish, but You remain. They will all wear out like clothing; 12 You will roll them up like a cloak, and they will be changed like a robe. But You are the same, and Your years will never end.
Matthew 24:34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Christ's words did not replace the law, they were the fullness of it. The shadow was that which Moses received on Sinai, but the reality is the fullness of the law was found only in Christ. His commandments to love God and your neighbor are not new, they are the same. So the only way to fulfill the law, whether it be the law of Moses, or the law of Christ (because they are the same) is to be in Christ.

Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?" 37 He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and most important commandment. 39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."
Galatians 5:13 For you are called to freedom, brothers; only don't use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Galatians 6:2 Carry one another's burdens; in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

These laws are one and the same. A "shadow" assumes something is casting the shadow. Removing the shadow, or better yet, shedding full light on the thing which casts it, does not change what it truly is, it reveals it. A "copy" assumes there is something to be copied. The thing which is copied is not changed or done away with because the copy of it is removed, it is either hidden away without even a copy to interpret it, or the source is revealed in it's fullness. In this case the source, which is Christ, is revealed by those who are transformed by the spirit. Paul speaks of the ministry of the law as a veil, and he gives the one way by which the veil is removed.

2 Corinthians 3:13 not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside only in Christ. 15 However, to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 We all, with unveiled faces, are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Being "in Christ" removes the veil, it removes that which blocks us from seeing the realities that the shadow interpreted. When it is removed by the Spirit we receive freedom. Many people will claim that Full Preterism believes this anyway. As I have shown by the comments posted earlier, this is simply not the case. Full Preterists claim that AD 70, which is when the law of Moses was removed, removed the veil. But the law of Moses is just a temporal shadow.

So if the law was a shadow on this earth that represented Gods holiness, and with mans inability to comprehend and live up to God's holiness, it was a hinderance:

John 12:37 Even though He had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in Him. 38 But this was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, who said: Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: 40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them.

1 Corinthians 2:7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, which God predestined before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age knew it, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, and what has never come into a man's heart, is what God has prepared for those who love Him. 10 Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God.... 13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. 16 For: who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 Regarding them: the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

So if the shadow law caused a veil to be on men when the law is read, it can be safely said that the law of Christ is also blinding to those who do not have the Spirit. It is confusing and foolishness.

2 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.

So what kept men from God. What stood in the way of God and man. The law of Moses? By no means. If so Paul would have taught that it was in the destruction of Judaism that would remove the veil. Instead Paul said it was the Spirit that removes the veil. Removing the physical symbols of Judaism does not change the heart of Judaizers. It only reveals the defeat that their zealousness of the law brings.

Now again we go back to Romans. Whether before or after AD 70, whether with the physical law of Moses standing on the Mount or without, the Spirit is what frees men to turn to Christ, and remove the veil.
Romans 2:28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart--by the Spirit, not the letter. His praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 8:1 Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, 2 because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Full Preterism must either submit to the idea that the law is still in existence for everyone who is not in Christ, or submit to Universalist interpretations. The law of Christ is the reality of the shadow law of Moses. Removing the law of Moses, a copy, a shadow, does not remove the veil. Only the Spirit removes the veil. This is still ongoing because the law of Christ (the thing the law of Moses stood for, represented) is still ongoing.

It was THIS VERY SAME LAW that Adam broke in the garden. Even before the law of Moses existed on earth, there was a veil keeping men away from God because mankind (represented through the person Adam) broke the eternal law. Eating the apple was breaking the same eternal law that taking "the name of the Lord your God in vain" does. It is the breaking of this very same eternal law that condemns mankind today. Only in Christ is this condemnation removed. And being in Christ can only be individually experienced.

Being in Christ is not a corporate event, it is a personal event. Therefore, if AD 70 represented this change, because it only removed the representative of the true, then the true fulfillment is personally experienced each time someone enters into Christ. This is NOT application. AD 70, the removal of the fake/ copy, did not make true the reality, it only represents it. Reveals it.

The same is true for the garden of Eden scenario that was mentioned by Mike. Yes, the garden IS the same as the New Jerusalem in that it was a copy for it. The garden was physical, the physical is not the true. So what did the garden represent? The garden was the shadow, the physical representation of mankind dwelling with God. However, mankind can only dwell with God in Spirit and in truth. It was due to the breaking of the law that Adam was expelled and no longer able to enter. Covenant with God absent from sin. This is the same as the New Jerusalem, only with unveiled eyes we see that the spiritual reality of the New Jerusalem is what Eden was all about in the first place. Eden, Canaan, Old Jerusalem. All pointing to the New Jerusalem. Not different in character, just one a copy of the other. The law of Moses did not have a different character form the law of Christ, it was just a temporal representative, and therefore not sufficient. That is why Paul could call it "holy" and a "curse" at the same time. So the bringing in of the saints into the New Jerusalem is restoration into the true Eden.

Here is a link to a study on the eternal aspect of the covenant.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1769_gill_divinity.html#The_Abro

This is why Full Preterism is a "new gospel." It dishonors the eternal standing of the law and makes two different laws and two different condemnations. It dishonors the eternal standing of the covenant, failing to see that the one enacted on earth was only a copy of the true one made with Adam. The condemnation that came through Adam came from sin. Sin repelled Adam from the covenant, Christ restores it for each person that enters Him. Sin is the same disease today that it was for Adam, reaping the same condemnation and having the same cure. Time lines do not do the truth of the Gospel justice, and it eliminates the personal aspect of the fullness in Christ.

The gospel does just fine with it's own telling. It does not need me scrubbing through scripture to see what was done away with and what is left so that I can reach conclusions, none of which found in scripture, to explain it.

God Bless
Nate

Full Preterism vs. Idealism Part 2: FULL PRETERISMS ACHILLES HEEL

I had spent all my time in Full Preterism, when defending against Universalism, using the Romans 1-5 passages which declare that it is only "those that are his at His coming" or those "in Christ" who are declared to be saved. I still believe this is absolutely true. Reformed Preterists all agree there is an element of the "all" that refers only to the elect. "All in Christ" or "all His children" is the proper context of the Romans passages. What has not been answered, and cannot be answered with satisfaction is the element of the lake of fire, leading us to the first inconsistency of Full Preterism.

1. If the same punishment is declared for (2) agencies in scripture, then the SAME RESULT must ensue for both agencies.

For these issues I will go right to the source and use some quotes with links for those who have argued the positions being addressed.

Rev 20:10 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. 13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Reformed Full Preterist view declares the Devil was a literal angel who was the accuser of the elect and he is now in the lake of fire. Being in the lake of fire, as far as the devil is concerned, means to the FP that he is no longer able to tempt, accuse, perform. He is every bit as irrelevant to us today and unable to affect situations today as the souls of "anyone not found written in the book of life." This would be consistent, and they declare it. Hades also meets the same fate and they are every bit as consistent with Hades, a place they consider a literal spiritual holding for the saints prior to AD 70 which, because thrown into the lake of fire, is no longer used or relevant.

Where the consistency goes right out the window is where death is addressed. For the Devil, Beast, False Prophet, Hades, and more importantly to the non-Universalist FP, the souls of the unsaved, they are all in eternal torment unable to reach out from beyond the grave to affect mankind today. Evil is explained by the wickedness in mankind.

The laws of logic get tossed right out the window when death, who "were thrown into the lake of fire" is still able to continue to this day, defeated only "in Christ." The FP applies an application of the lake of fire where it DEFEATS death for the saved, but does not DESTROY death or its power ultimately for anyone else. All humankind are affected by death, which suffered the same penalty as the souls, Hades, the Devil, etc, yet its power and its reach is unaffected like the others.

I repeat: The SAME RESULT must ensue for all agencies receiving the same punishment!

Here is an exerpt from Sam Frost concerning death.

"In Greek, it is "the Death" and "the second one, the Death". The First Death came through Adam and is equal to "the condemnation" (Rom 5). So, why would we not think that since the Tree of Life is now manifest in God's People, that the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil ceased? Man has two trees to eat from. Following the pattern, the eternal reality of creation is seen also in the Age to Come new heavens and new earth. You have two Trees. Dismiss the Tree of Life (fail to submit to the King of all the Earth and who is King over all the kingdoms of the world), and is there not to be any condemnation? The new covenant is not a condemnation-less covenant! No universalist can get around the FACT of The Second One, The Death." Dennis says this is "redefinition". In what way he never explains. He just makes the charge and moves on, parading the universalists as the most consistent FP system!...If the death is still around, then so is your condemnation. With the destruction of the Death, the condemnation in Adam was effectively removed. Dennis asks how can this be for the believer, but not for the wicked. This is answered by replacing the First Death with a new heavens and new earth Death, the Second one. Had this not been revealed to us, and had this verdict of God's court been uttered, then universalism can make a case. As such, it cannot. The Second Death prevents universalism from being true. It is like God saying, "the Gospel is going to the world, to being healing to nations and reveal my son, Jesus. But, not every one is going to see my glory. Some will refuse it, and for them, I have decreed a Second Death for those who reject the New Tree of Life." Pretty simple to me..."

This answer is by no means satisfactory for one reason, which Sam Frost himself brings to light. "The First Death came through Adam and is equal to "the condemnation" (Rom 5)...If the death is still around, then so is your condemnation. With the destruction of the Death, the condemnation in Adam was effectively removed." No matter how much explaining away he does about the second death, he gave his own arguments right back to the Universalist. He declares that the first death is the death that brought condemnation under Adam. The Reformed Preterist believes that the sin and condemnation under Adam continue for those who are not saved, and explain the evil that is still in the world, even with an irrelevant suffering Devil who is in the lake!

The "condemnation" from Adam MUST continue for men to be considered guilty today! It was condemnation under the first Adam that condemned men, brought the law, made the need for a redeemer in the first place! To remove this condemnation from the world, as they do the devil and the souls of the dead in the lake of fire, they must declare that men are no longer condemned! Instead, Sam entirely eliminates the sin brought by Adam (leading to the "first death"), and creates a new sin leading to condemnation of the "second death" for those not in Christ. In other words, the problem brought into the world through Adam was NOT conquered by Christ, the wheel was simply reinvented. Not only is Romans 1-5 the undeniable proof that only those "in Christ" are saved, but it is also the biggest part of scripture used to show WHY we need a savior!!! Because under Adam all men are condemned!

Full Preterism has taken a new twist, the entire book to the Romans has become irrelevant in Sam's new law and new death scenario. I will deal with the idea of a "new law" or a "new death" later. The idea that the spiritual came after the natural occurrence is backward but I cannot address that here in this step. Even though both "new" things go against the fabric of Reformed thinking. But the point over all is even if a "new death' or "new law" were NOT created, we have different results from the same judgment.

The issue here is the consistency in the approach. The devil is gone and inactive, irrelevant and being tormented, and so is death. The same punishment for both MUST produce the same results. Do I really need to do a study on Romans to show that the death from Adam is still going on today? Do I need to state anymore that the only way for Full Preterism to answer the devil and death problem is to invent a "new law" that humans break after AD 70, and a "new death" to explain the lake of fire that Universalists get wrong? Reformed Full Preterism must either depart from the Reformed grounding, lead to a Universalist approach, or lead to an Idealist approach.

So what is the Idealist approach that makes the view of this different? Idealism sees the lake of fire as the hyperbole to show the utter defeat of the devil, the grave, the false prophet, the beast, and the souls of those not found in the book., as being defeated only IN CHRIST. The events of AD 70 are the same as those of 4000 B.C. When Abraham was called from Ur, when the Israelites were lead from Egypt, when the Christians fled to Pella, when we die to the “old man” and enter into Christ. The prophecies of Revelation 20 are hyperbole to tell this story.

The devil is not dead or gone, he is utterly defeated by Christ, and those “in Christ” share this victory over him. He is in the “lake of fire” (under His feet!) Death is not gone and reinvented as the “lake of fire.” Death is utterly defeated by Christ, and those “in Christ” share the victory over it, and never die. Those outside of Christ still die. They suffer that utter defeat of a rebellious heart against God, eternally.

Idealism sees that the stories of the Exodus and AD 70 are pointing to a higher spiritual truth. The truth that Christ came to REVEAL in His time on earth.

“John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

Where Full Preterism fails this truth is to put it in time. Christ is eternal, he did not become the way, the truth or the life because of any act performed in finite time. He is eternal. He was such when he declared He was. We was such from the beginning. The events that occurred become the fulfillment of something that was always true “in Christ.” In doing so, and making the eternal a matter of time, they run into the forced and unavoidable inconsistencies as shown above.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. 4 In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 That light SHINES in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it.

God Bless
Nate

Full Preterism vs. Idealism Part 1: INTRODUCTION

The question has been raised with the intent of learning the difference between Full Preterism and Idealism. The Full Preterism being discussed is more directly aimed at the Reformed Full Preterist interpretation. In this stage of Full Preterism, which I have recently come out of, there is the tendency to hold onto Reformed soteriology in the face of Full Preterists who would take the view all the way to Universalism. I was one of those preterists. It was clear to me that Universalism was not correct according to Romans, but it was also abundantly clear that Full Preterism was crumbling from beneath me in the light of Consistent Cessationism. In order to battle the Universalist logical conclusions of Consistent Cessationist Full Preterism, many Cessationist believers are giving ground to the idea that all Biblical offices, gifts, and patterns still continue in a milder, less structured sort of way. For instance, there are no teachers and preachers, but there are still elders that teach. There is also the debate that the gifts of the Spirit are not applicable because they were in part, but the Spirit still moves people to Christ as He did in the transition period. In fact, the Spirit always moved the elect to God and the truth even before the New testament time frame.

Basically, some of the Idealist understandings I hold are being grasped by those Full Preterists who were close to “throwing out the baby with the bath water” because they were consistently following the logical conclusions to Full Preterism. However, rather than give in to Universalism, because Universalism is clearly against scripture, they grabbed back (or just held on tighter to) their Reformed soteriology while maintaining a Full Preterist position, creating a very inconsistent version of Full Preterism and back tracking on many of the leanings they were headed toward when following the Full Preterist logic.

I was in exactly this same boat. There are some basic logical conclusions to Full Preterism that cannot be ignored. Some may try to excuse or wiggle out of the conclusions by going back to their incorrect denominational mindset, but none the less, these conclusions are the only logical answer to many questions in the Full preterist framework. I will address these in this study but first I want to lay down a few rules that show the weakness of Full Preterism.

1. If the same punishment is declared for (2) agencies in scripture, then the SAME RESULT must ensue for both agencies.
2. If something arrived for a “special purpose,” and did not exist in the actions of God on earth prior to that point, then they MUST CEASE when the purpose for their existence is taken away or completed. If they DO NOT cease, they were always in existence, and were only being revealed in a new way during that “special purpose” timeframe, which then consistently allows them to continue afterward.
3. Scripture continues to interpret scripture. Like Matthew parallels Luke concerning the same judgment, so other passages parallel each other when talking of the same event.
4. God’s attributes come into play for everything. God does not change and His character does not change. Just because God acted in time, those actions did not benefit, make different, cause change to, or halt His ways. He is the same today as He was in Genesis.
5. Man and God MUST be viewed differently. Just because man and the nature of humanity follows a pattern, does not mean God follows that same pattern in respect to HIS nature. Until made perfect in Christ, man is always finite, the ways of nature are always finite. God has always been infinite. His ways and His holiness always was. “I AM” is about the most literal description for God I can think of.
6. All attributes of God apply to Christ.

Most of what I wrote above will be easily agreed to by the Reformed Full Preterist. There are maybe a couple they would dispute because they know why I say it and know where I am heading. It doesn’t make the logic any less true. Examples for each rule will be contrasted in this explanation of the (2) views that I am going to discuss (FP vs. PI).

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:
This introduction to what I am going to write is by no means meant to insult or enrage anyone. I have been asked to address the difference between Full Preterism and Preterist Idealism. I am writing from personal experience, 8 years worth, of being an active participant in the Full Preterist circle. I am writing about views I held and tendencies I saw in myself and others. This does not mean I think myself better than others. This does not mean I think I am further evolved or wiser. It simply means I have been granted a different perspective on Preterism. I saw the tendencies and I turned away from them. I could find no consistent, satisfactory, alternative answers to the questions raised against the logical conclusions of Full Preterism.

Further more, the Bible was being viewed as a book that I needed to pick apart and decide what applied and what didn’t apply. What ceased in AD 70 and what did not. With those cessations, what can I continue to do or not do as a member of the Kingdom.

Lastly, I came up with an important conclusion. Any theology that breeds an attempt to define love as anything other than “self sacrifice,” is a VERY WRONG theology. this led to the most inconsistent application of Full Preterism that I have seen yet. It is the biggest factor in my embrace of Idealism over Full Preterism and I will discuss that in length throughout this work I am embarking on.

I am embarking on a big work. I hope everyone has patience with me i this, and I will release each segment at it’s own time. I will not, however, respond to each individual segment until the whole is complete. So please bear with me.

God Bless
Nate